America's Policy Toward the Caspian Region - Senator Robert C. Byrd (February 18, 1997)
Dear Azerbaijani people,
I think we should forgive one another and try to move on with our lives. We should work together hard to open a way towards prosperity and frienship. But we should never forget this tradegy that took lives of ten thousands of our great nations, crippled our economies and made most of our good people find a new home abroad, causing deep phsycological wound that would take decades to cure, at the same time overcoming foreign powers' pressure in their destructive way of exploitation of our natural resources and national wealth.
We are obliged, as neighbors, as future potential allies to come to such a decision on Karabakh that would garantee peace and stabiity in the region, and make any future confrontation impossible and unacceptable by both sides, no matter who comes to power in Azerbaijan and Armenaia, and no matter how hard and by whatever means foreign powers would try to destabilize the region playing there own political games. The only solution that we see is to give the de facto now existing Nagorno Karabakh Republic an "independent" status with an agreement with Azerbaijan that would oblige Karabakh to have open border policy with Azerbaijan and the return or new settlement of Azerbaijani citizens in Karabakh upon such request from citizens, providing that they will have all the benefits as the Karabakh born citizens do. Karabakh should be obligated to report to a special official representative from the Azerbaijani government, who would have his headquater or embassy in Karabakh, and would help Azerbaijani born citizens with there problems or complaints to Karabakh authorities. He would make sure that rights of Azerbaijani citizens are protected, including the rights to religion, freedom and pursuit of happiness. If any major problems occur, He is sopposed to notify the Azerbaijani government and take the matter to higher levels of authority between Karabakh and Azerbaijan. Armenia, after Karabakh is recognized as an independent state by Azerbaijan, immediatly should recognize the independence of Karabakh and the special agreement between Karabakh and Azerbaijan. Armenia should make sure that all its armed forces are out of Azerbaijani territory, and provide the safe resettlement of Azeri people in the region.
Amenia is obligated to respect Nagorno Karabakh's soveregnty and not try to press the government of Nagorno Karabakh to favor new laws or make ammendments to the Constitution that would restrict human rights or discriminate nationals of other countries or ethnic minorities. The conditions for immigration of foregn nationals, including Azerbaijani citizens should not be restricted or the benefits cut at any time, except for when there is a serous threat to the National Security, such as an attempted coup or illigal overthrow of the government. Even at times of a Marshal Law when the situation is under the controll by the democratically elected authorities, all the immigration benefits should be restored immediatly.
Azerbaijan should be obligated to povide an open border for Armenian Citizens through its territory, (especially through Lachin Corridor) to enter Nagorno Karabakh Repulic and vice verse. Azerbaijan has to provide a safe open border for Nagorno Karabakh and freedom for their citizens to travel through Azerbaijan.
Karabakh like Armenia should also have a permanent official representative in Azerbaijan in a form of a embassy. Azerbaijan should open the blocade of Armenia and Karabakh on permanent bases. Likewise Armenia should open the blocade of Nakhichevan. Armenia and Azerbaijan should not concentrate large amount of troops near Karabakh or provide Karabakh government or Karabakh citizens any military assistance. Noagorno Karabakh Republic should have its own defence and national security ministry independent from any foregn influence. The open border policy between Armenia and Azerbaijan should be negotiated in more detail.
We hope that the people of Armenia, Nagorno Karabakh and Azerbaijan will take this plan into considiration and resolve this conflict peacefully.
Hello mr. Steven Howletts I have read your article from the freemike and you said that you can send some articles and book . I am interested in your articles and books and I wanna know how can I eceive them? What is the charge of them. You said Leave your adress.
my adress is:
1 nci Filo 11 nci Kol
Istanbul / TURKEY
I would be glad if you send me e-mail and tell me what is the price of your books and when I can receive them.
Dear Friends, Brothers and Sisters! IMAGINE
I think it's better to stop blaming each other and look back to the history.Let's look into future. We know one thing defenetly : One Day Azeri and Armenian people and all Others Will Live in Peace.You may say I'm a Dreamer, Bur I'm not the Only One.
We already have done enough to be shamed of ourselves. Let's not build our Relationship on the Old Testament Covinent,but on the New Testament Covinent from our GOD- Jesus :Forgiveness and Love.
My Azeri people have been killed just as the Armenian in this Evil War, nevertheless I Hope Some Day You'll Join Us and Caucasian region Will Be as One. Imagine!
Yashasin Azerbaijan ,Gurgustan , Ermanistan ! Just Imagin.
This ten year old conflict has crippled Armenia's economy and has brought much suffering to so many Azeri refugees. It is a great tragedy that shouldn't be reduced to who's right and who's wrong. I pray for the victims of both sides of this terrible conflict every night. Im sure both sides have done horrible things to the other (though the only facts I've seen are the pogroms against Armenians in Sumgait and Baku). One of the posters in this forum had written that the Armenians didn't populate the area until just recently...the 17th century I think. Now, I'm no History professor with a Ph.D. but I find it very hard to believe that theory. What about the Armenian Empire which spanned the entire near east as far northeast as the Caspian sea and as far southwest as Jerusalem at around 66 BC. Obviously I'm not claiming that all that land belongs to the Armenians, but doesn't that prove that Armenians were living in (and had to be a major component of the region to have had such influence) the area well before the 17th century? Also, I don't want to hear anymore about the Armenian Genocide in this forum. Its not the place to discuss that tragic episode in the region's history. Weather you call it a genocide or not...too many people lost their lives to be degraded by infantile insults and explanations. Quite frankly I find it very offensive when I hear immature letters about how there was no genocide. Nobody has a right to say that the Armenian Genocide is a hoax when they weren't there. They can speculate the theory all they want, but how can one say that it didn't happen with the staggering amount of evidence that there is and the plain fact that there is nothing Armenian left in the entire nation of Turkey outside of Istanbul. Also, stop trying to justify the genocide. There is no way that you'll succeed in that endeavor.
Now, back to the true purpose of this forum, anyone can make claims about who built what and who was where first. At this point it really doesn't matter. The fact is that for Azerbaijan Armenia's not gonna go away and the same goes for Armenia. Both sides are eventually gonna have to live with one another right? There's no denying the powerful influence of the deep-seeded Armenian history in Artzakh. What I personally believe is that this conflict is a result of the breakup of the Soviet Union (I know it started prior to that, but I think it has escalated to this length because of it) and so it is not a question of territorial integrity. From my point of view, I think everything would be fine if Artzakh was reunited with Armenia. Nobody wants Artzakh to turns into another Nakhichevan, that would be too cruel. Azerbaijan will still have it's oil, that it depends heavily on, and Armenia will have a portion of it's historic land liberated which would also help Armenia economically because it is a lush and rich soiled area(lets not forget that Armenia is a landlocked country being blockaded on both sides and has most of it's traditional land occupied by neighbors). Azerbaijan gains nothing from having an impoverished neighbor in Armenia. Along with the reunion with Artzakh, Armenia will have a better economy and without a war, the region on a whole will flourish.
It is pretty clear that Azerbaijan stands no chance against Armenia militarily, if a rag tag bunch of volunteers defeated their professional military so convincingly. Nobody wants an all out war, and officially, Armenia has no part in the conflict militarily. It is a crude statement which in older times would have been enough. But I like to believe that we live in a civilized world now and that direct talks between the two sides is necessary in deciding a peace. The government in Baku must realize that Artzakh (no matter how much it doesn't want to accept it) has been a separate entity with its own government completely independent from Azeri rule for several years now. They can no longer consider it as just a revolutionary uprising. Once direct talks take place between Baku and Stepanakert, I believe the peace process will be sped up greatly.
Now that I have set down my opinion, I would like to hear your responses and opinions from your own point of view. There is no need to get nasty or immature. There will be no point to this forum if we cant carry on a serious debate without insults and mud flinging. If I'm open-minded enough to listen to your opinions then show the respect I've show you in my post and take this forum seriously.
I am trying to understand what's this forum all about...just a tribune for some cheap azeri/turkish propaganda, where the authors ammend their names with "Dr." and "Cambridge University" (iiii!!, aaaa!!!) just to increase the intimidation factor and to substanciate their "professionally" patronising tone (without even mentioning their use of homemade historical "facts")? Well well, you could have saved some uselessly wasted cpu cycles.
Anyhow, I would like to adress an argument that has been very often employed by armenian genocide revisionists.
From: Anar Humbataliyev [some "facts" delted -- you'll have to excuse my lack of respect toward the creations of your immagination] How can you find a face to give tribute to the armenian heroes that fought Turks and then call the outcome of that fight a genocide. Genocide is the word that can be best interpreted in the context of jews genocide. Compare. Why did Nazis kill Jewish?Becuase they were jewish. That is all they were accused of. They never fought Nazis.
Anar, ever heard of Warsaw Ghetto uprising? Reading your post I kinda get convinced that there are very fiew (if any) logical/rational methods with which I could convey you a thought. However I'll try the most basic -- Anar, there are two issues; 1) Armenian militiamen who tried to prevent the total anihilation of their nation (they had some limited success: for example by securing the escape routes of Armenian population from Van, Sasoun, Moush, who otherwise were doomed to death on the hand of Turkish troups), and 2) the genocidal policy(i.e. -- a decision, an act of a ethnic/religious/cultural group's elimination) of "Young Turk" governement. Now Anar, neither of these facts refutes the other. The fact that Armenians tried to do something about their lives doesn't mean (suprise, surprise!) that Taalat Pasha didn't sign the order to start Armenian population's liquidation. I hope you made it by here.
A similar argument used by Turkish governement is that more Turks than Armenians died during WWI. This is another week falacy -- during WWII 6million Germans died. Basically -- as much Germans as Jews died during WWII. Does this prevent the Jewish Holocaust to be called a Genocide? Of course not! The idea of "genocide" is not about numbers -- it's about intentions, actions, AND results. The result of 1915-23: 60% of world's Armenian population was gone.
Dear Dr. Steven Howletts from ?? Cambridge University, I just checked listings for Cambridge University in England and in Massachusetts, and was VERY DISSAPPOINTED, NOT FOUNDING your name listed there. Please, we are waiting for explanation on this matter, and if you can be so nice to list ISDN numbers of yours publications, you was talking about?
There is no Dr. Steven Howletts at Cambridge. The person pretending to be him, is a fraud.
I read the postings on the board and I once again find myself convinced of the "power"of Armenian hatred that seems to have so deeply rooted in the armenian brains. I once again become sure that there is no way an Armenian can put aside his hatred, just for a second, and try to see the world without that hatred.
If they do, they would start realizing that the world has seen many wars,many massacres, and many tragedies. However, nobody but Armenians have made themselves the hostage of the past. Yes, many armenians may have died in 1915. It is an armenian tragedy, since they lost a lot of people. But why don`t you guys stop for a second and think why the armenina tragedy of 1915 should be any different from a tragedy of any other nation that has lost a war, battle, or riot? How can you find a face to give tribute to the armenian heroes that fought Turks and then call the outcome of that fight a genocide. Genocide is the word that can be best interpreted in the context of jews genocide. Compare. Why did Nazis kill Jewish?Becuase they were jewish. That is all they were accused of. They never fought Nazis. Why did Turks kill armenians? NOT because they were armenians, but becuases they fought Turks (with the heroes whose memory you still celebrate). They turned into betrayers. THey took an external enemy's, Russia's side, at a time Turkey needed their support most, its citizens who turned their guns against their Turkish neigbours,hoping to get their country as a thank you from Russians. How disgusting and low!!! For God's sake, understand the simple reality, " When you betray and fight somebody, they will fight you back. And you should be prepared to pay for your betrayal. Armenians got what they deserved. Any country would have done the same if it was in place of Turkey. True, aremenian civilians may have died in large numbers. But my friends, that is the WAR, the war that you started with the heroes for whom you have monuments in Erevan. Then how can you dare to insult the memories of the victims of Jewish genocide, by using such a strong word as GENOCIDE to pursue your cheap ambitions. Let me repeat; "When you try to kill somebody, prepare to be killed too. Especially when you are trying to kill a Turk. You can never get away with it."
So put aside your illusions, and open your eyes my dear neigbors. Life continues. Don`t whine and try to justify your crimes against Azerbaijan by so called "past crimes"of turks. Be a man. Russia is not gonna be there for you for ever. It is already dying. Don`t cause another armenian fiasco, which your grandchildren would have to whine about and convince everybody that it was a genocide.
I go to Azeri website guestbooks, and read them. All people leave on those guestbook are "hi", "good job" etc. Never anything bad mentioned about armenians. We are not obsessed with hatred. No man should ever be. Look at armenian guestbooks. All you will find is racist remarks about Turks, Azeris. All you see is hatred. You call turks "dogs", insult their culture in every possible way, call them "uncivilized". You live for hatred. Compare yourselves with Turks, and you will understand who is civilized and who is an animal with nothing, but a thirst for blood. It is clear from a simple guestbook of a simple personal webpage. With all the hatred and hostility you have, how are we supposed to find a way to live with you? Believe me it is hard. And I don`t see any progress in the near future. You cannot negotiate with somebody who lives in his own world decorated with hatred and racism.
I hate you for forcing me to hate you.
Thank you for clarifying our obscured minds with the brightness of your talents. History, as a series of facts, might be the poems you like to memorize and recite; but History as the intricate web that glues and structures the fact requires more insight and a perpicacious mind which you definetely lack. Some of facts you mention might be real, but facts outside a context mean nothing, because they can be presented and interpreted in so many different ways. How old are you? Your naive yet pompeous and arrogant presentation of Historical sciences and yourself suggest that you are either a second hand assistant or quite immature. You might have learned some historical facts, but you failed to learn the intellectual tools and means to analyze them. I am sure that a data-mining tool is better equiped to extract knowledge from documents and archives than you do. I don't want to waste my time with sterile discussions about History and if you know how to read archives objectively: it's not my mission in life and this is not the appropriate place. Please read my messages in the same manner. But, are you able of such a careful reading of documents? Furthermore, no one with the right mind would attempt to discuss controversial historical facts in a forum that is more like a chaotic arena where lack of discipline is the law. Sir,
get real and stop making a fool of yourself. Enough said. Let me simply conclude saying that:
'The dogs bark, the caravan passes by' ( From the french, "Les chiens aboient, le caravan passe". I am sure you are bright enough to decipher the meaning of the adage! If not study french History).
P.S. Based on your intellectual credibility, I think we should check if you're really affiliated with Cambridge University, and if not I would like to investigate if it is reprimendable by the law to claim so.
I read your debate with sad feeling. Today we witness once again how people with no historical education whatsoever attempt to argue on historical issues. Unfortunately, History is a very vulnerable subject. For the "outsiders" (under this term I mean people of academic background other than History) History may seem an easy subject, since it does not imply formulas or specific scientific rules. However, let me tell you that when a non-historian speaks (or even argues!) with the historian about his discipline, the best way for the latter to escape from the numerous and astonishing nonsenses and thereby safe the ears is just to "agree" with the other side and end the conversation.
For this reason, I will not even start the conversation with many of you, especially with Mr. Galstian and Mr. Lautreamont. Again, the reason is that you guys have absolutely no clue (sorry for the tone) about the history of the region. What you say is what you read in the articles of the same kind of "history-lovers". You guys have never studied in the world archives, you have never used specific historical methodologies and techniques, and you simply don't know the subject. Believe me. All you are arguing for is what you would like it to be, but not what is in reality. History is an exact subject. It always leaves evidences, which are... guess what? yes, historical sources.
It is the historical sources that provide the researchers with the information. It is the historical sources the researcher make the conclusions from. And only the researcher who uses (and knows HOW TO USE!) the historical sources can make correct conclusions.
As a person who spent all my life in doing researches on Middle East and Caucasus, as the Professor of History at Cambridge University with teaching experience at Yale, Manchester, LSE, as an absolutely impartial side, I will just brief you some facts that are indisputable and are the HISTORY.
- Armenians have not lived in Transcaucasia for the centuries. It is a myth. The first massive Armenian immigration to the Erivan, Nakhichevan and Karabakh Khanates started in 1828 and it was encouraged by the Russian Tsarist government. The Russian Ambassador to Iran, Alexander Griboedov, had described the resettlement of the Iranian Armenians in the above mentioned lands in his memoirs. Even after the first massive arrival of the Armenians to Transcaucasia, the original Muslem population (mainly Azeris) remained the majority in Erivan, Karabakh and Nakhichevan.
- There still exists the monument in Nagorno Karabakh which comemorates the arrival of the first immigrants to Nagorno Karabakh. It was erected in 1978 in Leninavan (Mardakert region of Nagorno Karabakh) to mark the 150th anniversary of the Armenian immigration. Until recently, there was a script on the monument, but after the outbreak of the conflict, Armenians had erased the script.
- All pre-1828 Christian buildings in Nagorno Karabakh are Albanian (don't confuse the Caucasian Albanians with the European Albanians). Albanians were the only indigineous population of Nagorno Karabakh, and they were assimilated into the Azeri ethnos in the Middle Ages, long before the Armenian immigration. Therefore, only the modern Azeris can be considered to be the descendants of the Caucasian Albanians (the fact accepted by the world historical scholarship).
- Only after the Crimean War, 1853-55, when the second massive immigration of the Armenians from Turkey took place, did the Armenians outnumber the Azeris in Transcaucasia. The purpose of Russia's promotion of the Armenian immigration was to create a Christian province in the South which was to serve as a stronghold for further Russian penetration of Iran and the Ottoman Empire.
- Armenian immigration continued in the 1890s after the disastorous rebellion of the Armenians in Anatolia in 1894-95.
- There was no so-called "Armenian genocide" in 1915. The Ottoman government ordered the resettlement (even not the deportation, since it was the resettlement within the same country) of the Armenian population from Eastern Anatolia to Syria because they started massacres of the Turks and Kurds on the eve of the Russian advance. Armenians in all 6 villayets were in minority. The goal of the Dashnaktsutsiun leaders was to provoke unrest in Anatolia, cause sympathy of the Entente and to acquire a statehood after the defeat of Turkey. More than 2.5 million Turks and Kurds were killed by the Armenian rebels in 1914-18, while around 600.000 Armenians suffered during the resettlement. "Genocide" is the state policy of extermination of the nation. There was obviously no such a policy adopted by the Ottoman government in 1915, and what it ordered was the reaction to the Armenian violence towards Turkish and Kurdish civilians.
- Stalin never "granted" Karabakh to Azerbaijan. In 1921, the decision was made to "leave" Karabakh within, and not to "transfer" to, Azerbaijan. If you look at the Protocol of the Kavbuero Meeting of 5th July, 1921, (every historian nowadays can order the document from the former Party Archive in Moscow) you will read exactly the word "leave". So, when you "leave" something somewhere, it obviously implies that it was there before. Masterly manipulating with the words, Armenians pursue the aim to justify their territorial claims to Azerbaijan. In addition, in 1921 Stalin did not have enough power to "grant" territories or to take such kind of important decisions. He was an ordinary minister (narkom), and his power was very limited. Contemporary advocates of the Armenian Cause use Stalin's name, known for his brutal dictatorship, to justify their territorial intentions.
- More than 400 geographical names in modern Armenia were renamed from Turkic to Armenian.
- The first violence in the 1980s took place in late 1987, when the Armenians expelled 4.000 Azeris from Kafan, Masis and Goris. Azeri refugees were the first in the conflict. They were sent to Sumgait, where only 3 months later the tragedy broke out. It is the undisputable fact that two ethnic Armenians (Grigorian and Oganov) were arrested in Sumgait for killing at least 6 Armenians. Armenians are responsible for the first violence in the conflict, which is the expulsion of the Azeris in 1987.
- The first vicitms in the conflict were Azeris - two guys killed by Armenians few days before the Sumgait tragedy in Askeran.
- No single bullet had fallen on the Armenian soil since the beginning of the conflict. The war took place only on the territory of Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan is the victim, Armenia is the aggressor.
These are only few facts. If you are interested in more information or if you want to read my books and articles, leave your message and address here. I will be happy to send them to you.
Dr. Steven Howletts
Mr. Vigen, thank you for finally posting this list of books. Let me remind you that in my first request I asked for previous sources used by Mr. Novello just to make sure you are as objective as you claimed to be. Again, my request was ignored. But one of Mr. Novello's books was co-authored with Armenians. Which proves that this book is not objective. Mr. Vigen, you make it sound that Azerbaijanis' major fault is that they are a younger nation. Just being a younger nation does not make us worse. I cannot agree with your numbers 600 versus 3000. It is at least 800. If major components of culture are language and religion- then there is no way Armenian culture can be 3000 years old. Great Armenia BC is not a basis for anything at all, because if we follow your logic both Azeris & Armenians should leave Caucasus (as Mr. Krasilnikov showed, Armenians are very closely related to Gypsies and they migrated to Caucasus) and leave it to the original local tribes. Unfortunately these original local tribes don't exist any more. They were incorporated in both Armenian and Azerbaijani ethnoses. Let me also remind you of Albania, which occupied most of the modern Azerbaijan including Karabagh, both Upper & Lower. The ethnic basis - well, then why do you claim just Upper Karabakh? What about Javaheti in Georgia, some areas in Turkey, a village of Nakhichevan in Russia, in fact, every place in the world where Armenian population exceeds 50000 people? And your "plain human" basis - please clarify this, because as it may be plain to you, it is not to me. Artsakh (Karabakh) was part of Albania (BTW, Artsakh is Albanian name for this area, not Armenian), it was populated by Albanians. Albanian church became a subsidiary of Armenian Grigorian church only after Arab invasion. By the way in 18th century this "Armenian" population of Karabakh still called themselves Albanians. (check out a letter to Peter the Great). And I found your comment about churches BC very interesting. You are suggesting that Armenians had churches Before Christ?? 3-4 mosques of 18c? Do you mean that when Arabs invaded Azerbaijan in 7c they did not build any mosques? The persian rule is another interesting comment, as after the Arabs there were Seljuks, Atabeks, Mongols, Timurids, Ag-Koyunlu, Kara-Koyunlu, Sefevids... As you know, all these dynasties were Turkic. And Karabagh was a part of all these empires. After they collapsed, Karabagh indeed found independence. But it was not ruled jointly by meliks. It was ruled by an Azeri khan named Panah-Ali. The Khanate period is indeed a very interesting one, but I'll comment on it next time. The 2 mosques in Baku information is probably based on the fact that during Soviet time the were 2 working mosques. There are many more that were built long ago but not used for 70 years. There also were 2 armenian churches - that's how Armenians were oppressed. So these 300000 Azeris just fled Armenia peacefully with a lot of money. That's why they all came to Azerbaijan in one go, on their feet or trucks found by their way, filled our hospitals and were placed to reside in sanatoriums, hotels, dorms, etc. Surely, that was not a deportation. FYI, out of all Armenians I knew in Baku everyone (!) sold their apartments. And most of them went to Russia, not Armenia. Why do you think they did?
Thanks Mr Lautreamont
I appreciate your letter very much, since my response to Mr Krasilnikov's (I wonder how true is that) letter did not reach this site. Well too bad...
I want to say, that I was not surprised that Mr K. noticed my grammatical mistakes. But I was rather surprised that he called me poor educated. The things I find most unintiligent on this site are comments like this one, or such YOU DO NOT HAVE GROUNDS FOR CLAIMING YOUR LAND, BECOUSE YOU HISTORY IS FALSE. Well we can understand that after a deep analytical review, and after years of spending in libraries and studying armenian history, you (mr Krasilnikov) became aware of that our history is completly false. Is that how you got the idea? Or did you have a time machine to travel back and chek up the old times? Or....... Ok I won't waste my time on this usual overstatement. Just some responses to your "facts" The one about the azeri plane crashed down by armenians, and which also was full of azeri "savers" was simply shocking. I should care to spend some time on this, it would be easy to analise this "fact" and crash it down among the other "thousand and one " facts. a) you say the plain was suppost to land at Spitak airport? Well, since this is after the erthquake, it must be impossible to do so, since it would be in no condition to recieve any planes. Yes and it was closed untill recently. b) you say "armenian militeries shaked the plain down and 100 more azeris died" OK. What militeries? Now I should say - what the hell are you talking about? There was no armenian force of any kind available to go and shake off some azeri plain full of life savers and aid. There were even no people in Zvartnots airport to recieve the real humaniterian aid. And as much as I know nobody could care less about crashing that plane if there was one. c) needless to say that when I started asking people who would know something about this, I got negative responses, nobody ever heard of such plane. Sorry. And while there were no enough people to recover the bodies out of the ruins, Turkey was recieving letters messages like "congratulations with your erthquake". Hey azeris did something like that pass your mail too?
I also started asking about the armenian "deportations" of azeris. Well, among other people, my father used to be a very high ranking official in the region and if anyone knew about these deportations it would have been him. He said that there were instances of some violence and murder they were so insignificant and mainly in the villages near Azerbaijan, and it was nothing like what azeris did with armenians in 88. And he also said that people were so angry at the mass killings in Sumgait and Baku, that they decided to drive every single azeri out of armenia, but there were few left, as they had mostly sold their houses and left for Russia and Azerbaijan - peacefully.
And another of your notions about the borders? All I can say is if they could have been changed by azeris and turks in the past, then it is alright to change them back today. It is a only the historical right of armenian people to have back what they have lost. And about Alaska? What about Alaska. As you might remember from "your?" history books Nicolay 2 nd sold it to USA, well , I don't think you have the right to claim anything back. I never liked Russia, since it plays dirty games with everyone. I would be naive to think they have sincere and honest intentions when "helping" Armenia or Karabagh.
After all read Mr Lautreamont's letters and it explains the reality about Turkic people, their character is deeply analised and explained. I hope the Azeris will learn something about themselves out of these articles. But you can never expect anything reasonable from these people, so don't I.
The Diaspora, Apr 19 1998
Have you seen 'The Seven Samurais' of Kurosawa? Mr Krasilnikov reminds of the would-be-samurai in the movie who had a constant need of accusing others of their mediocrity in a very offending and, should I say, pathological manner. The reality was that he himself was issued from a poor, uneducated familiy and his pathological outbursts and 'logorheas' were a reflection and dictated by a) his own insecurities and feelings of inferiority b) the lack of generousity or should I say nobility; WHILE THE OTHER SAMURAIS WERE GENEROUSLY FIGHTING TO PROTECT OTHER LIVES, HE WAS DRIVEN BY SELFISH URGES TO DESTROY OTHERS IN ORDER TO HIDE HIS OWN INFERIORITY. 'I enjoy very much OF funny articles OF ARMENIAN GUY UNDER NAME VIGEN ... he makes a lot of elementary GRAMMA[R] mistakes in his letter.' Ironic, isn't it? I rest my case. Is this forum a vanity fair? ( Note that all Azeris in the forum but Mr Rovshan Kulyiev had this urge to mention their degree - or is it a 'protocol' among 'educated' people or a vulgar show-off? ) Are we here to impress each other showing how deep is our knowledge of English and how well we master the art of writing? I hope not: this is not a literary contest and perfect English is not that essential: MY QUOTATION FROM HIS MESSAGE CAN HARDLY BE CONSIDERED ENGLISH, BUT WE CAN STILL UNDERSTAND HIM AND THAT'S WHAT COUNTS. All I've said in my previous message about the way they debate - or fail to debate - still holds true and is unlikely to change in the near future. But, for how long shall we continue these unconstructive and fruitless quarrels? Nietzsche once said: 'if you fight for too long your ennemy you end up sharing the same values'. If you analyze their messages you can notice that they have no plans, no goals ( he insistantly asks for the references - for the sake of arguing I guess - and when he's given references he insults you - to change the focus and discredit I guess. ) In other words, they have nothing to prove and simply react to our messages, somehow mimicing their nomadic ancestors who aimlessly wandered and in order to survive destroyed any civilization that came across and/or opposed them: part of their heritage? In fact, because they have nothing to prove and in order to 'survive' it is of their interest to create a loud enough noise to interfere with and perturb messages sent by others: there's nothing else they can do but prevent others communicating: Azerbaijan's propaganda is completely based on the same methods. ( Interesting enough, the french word 'parasite' means as well parasite/virus as noise. ) Let us agree on some goals, some subjects we would like to discuss and let us agree on a plan. Of course, we don't need to have the same goals or plans, but we can always share our thoughts and constructively criticize each other's ideas and maybe others Armenians will join later. Most of all let us ignore their logorheas otherwise we will be like electrons who are in constant motion but don't advance because they move in circles. This forum can also be a meeting place and not only an arena. As expressed in my first message, my goal is to prove that it is not wise to think that their can be a peaceful solution to the Armenian-Turkish conflict in general and the Armenian-Azeri conflict in particular; their can be temporary no peace-no war compromises (remedies) but no solutions (cure). When criminals or drug dealers invade a neighbourhood, the only way out is to push them away and out of the neighbourhood unless they leave by themselves which is very unlikely. Did anybody hear of a solution where the residents of a neighbourhood had to accomodate criminals who invaded their territory and seek a 'peaceful solution'? What a hypocrisy? It is true and I understand that these drug dealers or criminals are humans and can be reintegrated in the society if enough effort is spent, but that implies the collaboration of an entire society and is beyond the capabilities of a neighbourhood community. But as long as and because the international community continues to tolerate their past and present crimes and indirectly encourages their future crimes, we have no other choice than 'opt' for the only solution left for us. Besides, we don't have to be the ones to pay the price. This was my original plan: a) Explain why it is impossible to negociate or debate with them in order to seek a fair or rational solution. ( I assume that I gave enough explanations so far; not only they are imbeciles, but it is of their interest to create enough noise to prevent any constructive debate and that's their strong point, a heritage from their ancestors ) b) Explain why it is not wise to trust them and how dangerous they can be c) based on b) we have enough incentives to seek for a solution, based on a) we are left with only one choice d) Explain why such a solution is feasible and realistic. (Despite what Mr Krasilnikov thinks, it is not 'at least naive to try to change modern borders between countries'. The principle of territorial integrity is not always and necessarily in the interest of the 'higher management' or as we say powerful countries he counts on. More to come. ) Any other suggestions? Please let me know. Let's also date our messages so we can identify them. Actually, any other way of identifying them is acceptable. Enough for today, it is time for some sensuous R&B by Jodeci, SWV or Moesha.
In case you have not read it yet, let me include this article I've read a couple of days ago.
This is the URL . Read it before it's gone. http://www.euroway.com/hyetoon/New/grn983.html
Dear mr Krasilnikov
I am glad that you enjoy my poorly written articles that much that out of all very intiligent and educated persons who contributed to this site you choose me to send your article on. Well first I should say that the not very good gramatical state of my articles is explained by the fact, that I never proof read them. I just type it fast and send them to this site, but if this bothers you sooooo much I will write more neat articles. And the notion about my education, don't just suggest someting out of my not very carefull writing. If you want to know I live in New Zealand, and came from Armenia 2 years ago. I am sure you are an azerbajani russian (are you?). The one uspect of unintiligence I always find in this site is the fact that people who have never studied Armenian history close enough to make any reasonable suggestions, make head over the feet statments, like "your history is false" or "you can't claim anything". Do not compare Alyaska to Karabagh. Russia sold it to USA, and if Armenia was in the place of Russia it would hardly be acceptable to ask anything back (especialy when you are the biggest country in the world). I am really not sure what your argument is? You are trying to suggest that despite whats right or wrong the borders are more important. Look, all I can say is that if once those borders were redrawn, they can very well be redrawn today. I do not see the difference. The only thing I see in you pathetic article is your outrageous excuse for your own country and people. You are after all an empire, holding so many nations like in jail. And what about Chechnya? This is a site about Karabagh not Chechnya. And if you want to know I think they have the right of independence from a nation like yours. I like russian culture and people, but sometimes looking back I think we should all hate you. First I should say that Russia has been a great experimenter of cultural genocides. Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Bellorusia and I am still not talking about all the small nations in Russia itself. The thing is that Karabagh was not thousand of years ago (its cause I mean) It was only in 1920 that Stalin gave it to Azerbaijan. Mr Ivan put yourself in the position of an armenian, well and if you can't, imagine your dear old capital .... lets say Sankt-Peterburg captured by Germans and still in their possesion, if you feel anything really bad in your heart, it may be close to what armenians feel for one of their lost capital cities, Ani which is right on the front of our border with Turkey. Thats not a false history , thats real, and we should thank dear old papa Lenin and dyadya Stalin for giving it to Turkey, which also promised to join USSR if Lenin would give Karabagh, Nakhichevan, and what the hell all Armenia to Azerbaijanis. Well the cosequences are evident. Germany did loose lot of her land, but didn't it deserve it? Shouldn't the same happen to turks, who ,anyway, will give back not their but our land? Armenia is not guilty in such crimes, I can't blaim you for not understanding the issue (althought it does not seem to be so hard), and in fact I wouldn't give a ........ that you don't. One day you will have more than one Chechnya and then you will start thinking otherwise. I have never heard of the azeri plain being crushed down by armenians, but well it seems to me lot of empty air really. What do you mean by "armenian militaries" ? You probably don't know that Armenia did not have an army at that time, when the erthquake happened, all of the forces (of any kind) were send to the disaster zone, and in fact all of the Karabagh problem was forgotten for a while, so I really can not see how and who would bother shaking off this plane full of humaniterian aid? Another thing is that there were no people (only one woman met Gorbachyev when he came to Armenia) in airports to even recieve this humaniterian aid, and how could this plain even land in Spital airport which was all in ruins, the roads were cracked, I don't know...... but while there were thousand bodies discovered under the buildings, Turkish goverment was receiving messages like "congratulations with your erthquake", hey there azeris, did something like that pass your mail too?
For the last word, I should ask didn't that russian WW2 poster say " RODINA MATS ZOVYET" ?
I enjoy very much of funny articles of Armenian guy under name Vigen.
Everyone may find out that this guy is a very little educated person. His arguments are as funny as his english writing, he makes a lot of elementary gramma mistakes in his letters. By the way, Vigen, where do you live? Regarding deportation of azeris from Armenia. Only one of thousands facts - within 20-30 days before Spitak earthquake Armenians killed hundreds of azeris and drived out about 15 000 azeris from Spitak region. Despite this fact of genocide against civil azerbaijani citizens Azerbaijani goverment right after Spitak tragedy sent aircraft with azeri live-savers to help Armenians. Armenian militaries shaked down this aircraft near by Spitak airport. As a result more than 100 azeri savers died.
Vigen, in your articles you very like to write about events of hundreds and even thousands years prescription. Vigen today is nearly XXI century, and people should live according to modern realities. Russia lost Alaska in 1866, and no one in Rusiia doesnt even think about returning of Alasaka. Germany lost native German lands as for example Konigsberg or Prussia and you see Germany doesn't try even to argue about these territories. Vigen, according to your theory American Indians have to drive out Americans from native Indian territories. We can give a lot of similar examples. Vigen you certainly understand that it is at least naive to try to change modern borders between countries. Please also note that Russians, Germans, American Indians have grounds to talk about their lost territories, but you Armenians don't have such grounds, because all your History is fiction.
Plese rest assured !!! Live in peace with your neighbours, stop predatory hysteria. It is the only way to get prosperous future for your country and nation.
Hi mr X
You really are trying to make it look like some kind of fraud, the abscence of these titles was explained by the fact that my other letters somehow did not get published. But here are they.
Sorhul (the part of historical armenia and iran which is called Iranian Azerbaijan) vol. 20 by Adriano Alpago-Novello 1988 OEMME Edizioni Milano Italia. A volume on Artsakh (not Karabagh) is also published (same info as above). The Armenians: by A. Alpago-Novello, B. Zekiyan, G. Jeni, A. Manoukian, A. Pensa. 1995 Booking international, Paris. The monuments and sculptures of Nakhichevan (armenian): by Argam Ayvazyan.1987. Yerevan. Djugha: by Argam Ayvazyan. 1984. Yerevan
And there are many more which are in my 1000 volume library which I left in Armenia, and did not take a catalogue. But as soon as I get my hands on a book which I think would be relevant for all of us to read I will inform you. Just unswering your question on what basis we claim Karabagh, well on all the bases you just wrote. Hostorical, ethnical, and just plain human. It is true that Armenians and Azeris did co-exist in Karabagh for some 500 years or so, but that did not make any difference, becouse there were kurds and lezgis and persians in small numbers. Well if azeris can claim Karabagh so can they, don't you think? Armenians were the essential group which inhabited this region as long as they inhabited all the other regions of Great Armenia. And how can someone say about the non existance of such country in 55 BC? That there was some Greek or something state, which was invaded by Aleksandr of Makedonia. Well first we are talking about is different, and for the second Aleksandr did not invade Armenia as he died, his officer did try however but not successfuly. And about the argument that we wrote our history is nonsense, in fact this period of Armenian history we know about mostly from Sasanid, Greek, Roman, and Byuzantine sources. And armenians did have numerous independent states in defferent sizes and sometimes few at once (Kilikia, Artsakh (many times self independent when the rest of Armenia was invaded by Turks and Persians), and the Small Armenia) which never ever hapened to Azerbaijan, which was under the Persian rule most of the time (excluding Karabagh which was invaded and then recaptured by Armenian meliks). I am not sure should I say turks or azeris, as by that time you were not formed as "azeris". As we know your unique culture is blending of Turkish and Persian cultures , so is your unique language, so it wouldn't be really formed as anything "azeri" by then, we can start talking about you somewhere 600 years ago only. The difference is big Mr X, 3000 years versus 600? 2000 churches and other monuments dating from BC versus 3-4 mosques of 18 c?. I don't know...... I even heard that even in Baku you have, 2 mosques? I am not sure please tell me. And about the azeris living in Yerevan, wrong! They were not Azeri (well mostly) the population was mainly persian, they spoke persian and they also build 2 mosques in Yerevan, so... And the rest of 300 000 thousand azeris living in Armenia? Well you see the difference is that while armenians were deported azeris were not, they fleed Armenia long before, all the houses were sold (on contrary to armenians who lost almost all their possesions) and there were no pogroms. Nobody forced them really (I know as I have been living in an Armenian village with many azeris, they left when armenians started asking Karabagh back) Sorry for this long letter I will write some more next time.
Mr. Lautreamont - I am not going to disscuss anything with you anymore. In fact, I regret I replied to your first message. It was an emotional move. I became angry. The likes of you are not worth talking to. They flourish under attention. So you will not get any more from me.
Mr. Vigen, I reread your messages and found that I still don't understand the basis for declaring Karabagh Armenian. Is it ethnical identity? Or is it Great Armenia BC? Or is it the fact that a lot of Armenians were killed by Ottoman empire in the WWI? Can you please state you reasoning clearly?
Mr. Vigen, I must ask you again as you keep ignoring me, please separate Turks and Azeris. Turks and Azeris are related, but we are not the same nation. We have a lot in common, but our language, cuisine, music, architechture, mentality, culture, in fact, our cultures, are similar but unique. Azeri-Armenian conflict is a completely separate subject from Armenian-Turkish relationship. As to genocidal attacks of Azeris against Armenians - it all really depends on what you call genocide. There were as many cases of genocide of Armenians against Azeris. Nakhichevan? But what about Yerevan with 45% Azeris before WWI and what about Zangezur and Sisiyan very recently?
I must comment on Baku. This is nonsense. to say nothing about the fortress, which was by zoroastrians, there are only a few building built by Russians after 1806. As to armenians- well, unless Tagiev, Asadullayev and Nagiev were armenian...
Everyone, please let me draw your attention that Vigen continuously ignores my requests for bibliographies of Pr. Novello's books. It makes me wonder why he does not want to release them.
I was reading the article after Mr Lautreamonts latest writing.
Is this a warning? You don't even argue about Karabagh being yours, are you saggesting that becouse in Lisabon everyone supported Azerbaijan, it is a historical justice, or even a human one, to leave part of Armenia in hands of people who
a) don't deserve it
b) stole it
c) want to destroy it
Who are you looking up to for a justice? Big superpowers who are afraid of similar conflicts, how there can possibly be justice where the black gold drowns it whenever it shows its head (if it does). I am sorry but your argument is not even an argument, its a pathetic way of justification of a warning. Well if you think US is going to bring its trups to start 2nd Galf war, you probably are wrong. There is no Iraq, the oil will be theirs even if they give Karabagh to Armenia right now. And yes there is still Moscow. Well as I wrote we could have easely solved this problem with Karabagh, we could and should have conquered Baku, (W W 2 anyone?) which the cease fire prevented, thanks to R. Kocharyan and Russia. And how can armenians not be anti-turk or anti-azeri? What kind of a question is that? Are you really what Mr lautreamont describes in his letter? I shoudn't ask, its most evident. After all your nation has done to us? After all these genocidal attacks, and I am still not talking about Turks, after Nakhijevan? We are supposed to love azers? Thats funny, so while we hate us you are very much in love with us. Is this what you are trying to tell us, or maybe you saying, nobody should hate Turks ar Azeris. Please explain. And afeter all armenians are civilised , our country has been a place where scinece and culture flourished when peace was existant (that is very rarely). Looking at these history books, I think that no nations had so many constant attacks and invadings, as Armenians. Some put our nationalist ideals as something bad, evel, and even shovinistic, as if we are not allowed to have the lands, which untill not very recently we lived and create on, back. I ask myself sometimes why, for what reason we should even think about returning anything to Azerbaijan? How can they claim anything at all, and how can these superpowers support them after what they allowed to happen to us in 1915, after everyone had a pice of 300 000 squere Km land leaving us with only 1/10 of it all, isn't this the least that we could return, have? Karabgh is not just Karabagh , Karabagh is Armenia, and always will be.
I've red the letters of Armenian persons Mr. Vigen and Mr. Launremot.
I regret that their brains are full of dark antiturk and antiazeri hysteria. I regret that unfortunately new Armenian President and almoust all Armenian Politics are of the same opinion as these two Armenian persons.
Armenians ignore the number of U.N. resolutions regarding Armenian - Azerbaijani Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. Armenians ignore the resolution of Lisbon Sammit of C.S.C.E. regarding this conflict.
The same time Armenians try to prove that they are most civilised nation all over the World. If Armenians are right in their agressive plans then why 52(of total 53) states of C.S.C.E on the Lisbon Summit supported Azerbaijani position in this conflict. Armenians, please think a little bit about these facts. Why do you try to get against whole World. I understand that your Nothern friends promise you every support in your agressive plans, but remember Chechnya, your Nothern friends are not all-powerful. You won't be able to fight with remaining part of World, you will loose. U.S., European Community end even your friends Russia and Iran support the territorial integrity of both Azerbaijan and Armenia.
Please listen to U.N. and C.S.C.E. reccommendations. Today is not yet late
I am not angry: I am simply in quest of answers and solutions to the eternal problem of our nation. It is true that we are dealing with an 'emotionally saturated' subject, but I think that we should try to be as objective and/or unemotional as possible. Please let me clarify myself in a very indirect way; a samurai asks his old master if he is strong enough to deserve his title [samurai], and the old master replies: you are still to powerful to be strong. An angry man can be powerful but not strong; we need to be strong in order to win. Interesting enough, Mr. X who reacted to my letter tried to discredit my statement but failed to see that the simplest way to prove that I am wrong was to propose another solution; I am still waiting to hear about that alternative solution: aren't we here to propose and debate solutions?. He tried to discredit my statement by trying to discredit me [Nazi, 'has serious virus infection']; it can happen that a crazy person may utter or conceive a sound idea or to a perfectly wise, intelligent person to utter or conceive a wrong idea. You can't discredit an idea by discrediting the person who expresses it. My statement may be wrong, but I would like to hear of an alternative solution so we can analyze it and discuss it to see if it's feasible and what will be the cost for us, Armenians. Furthermore, using primitive techniques like - 'well, well, well, and Armenians dare to say ...' - 'I will not argue with this guy ...' - 'has serious virus infection ...' - 'I'd bet you are not too good of an engineer'. is usually a sign of either a) lack of argument
b) unbalanced personnality
but in no case it constitutes a proper asnwer. Ironically, while trying to discredit my statement he was actually giving a proof of some of ideas stated but not explained in my previous message where I describe Turks as illogical people that are oblivious to any analytical or logical approach: maybe I am not too perspicacious, but
a) I would like to understand the logic behind the sentence 'If someone has enough sense to say that some of humans come from viruses - well, this person probably has some serious virus infection'
b) how his sentence relate to what I said in my previous message i.e. 'To use a metaphore, I would say: If humans derive from animal cells, Turks derive from viruses [ And a couple of lines above ] where Turk is considered as a behaviour'. (I promise to be more explicit and cover this issue in a future message entiteled 'invador instincts and Turks' and maybe that will be the opportunity to analyze the Nazi mentality and compare it to the turkish mentatlity; today I would like to concentrate on the way they 'argue and debate' or react should I say. After all, this is a space where we are suppose to confront ideas and argue and debate. ) (By the way, does Mr X really believe that Turks genetically descend from the turkish tribes who invaded this region of the world? If it is the case, I should question the depth of his understanding of history and culture. )
c) does it really make sense to explain and analyze when dealing with people who don't even make an effort to hear properly what is said. They simply react and in their somehow naive perception of realities they deny and hold for truth whatever crosses their imagination at that moment: an amalgam or a sequence of unrelated statements, accusations, naive self-flattery and macho type warnings. What really means 'to debate with Turks'? The tragedy is that they have this unique ability to believe in it and repating it until it becomes their reality. It is true that last time I neglected to give examples but I will be more generous today. Now let me give some examples to explain why I think that this unique and unusual logic that M. X uses is the rule among Turks.
a) I would like to understand why in some cities in Turkey the mayors made illegal the commerce of 'Dole' bananas? It is true that Robert Dole is pro-armenian, but what Robert Dole has or had to do with 'Dole' bananas? ( from 'Le Monde' )
b) Azeris presented to the Red Cross or the UN 'proofs' that Armenia used chemical weapons during the Artsakh war - that Azeris call Karabagh - and the fact resulted to be that because of the bombing they lost consciousness and were exposed to the sun: it was a simple case of sunburn. ( from 'Les guerres du Caucase' )
c) I would to understand the logic behind the speech of M. Erbakan as a prime minister of Turkey, to university students where he 'explains' - why the West owes to Islam computer technology. As a 'proof' he explains that when we go to the supermarket, the cashiers use machines based on an invention by the Arabs. Amazing logic;
a) what ciphers has to do with numbers: we use so called Arabic ciphers but the conecpt of number does not derive from it, historically it precedes it b) what this confusion between Islam and Arabs? ( By the way, Indians claim as theirs the so called Arabic ciphers.) - how much NASA owes to Islam and Turks, because each time they fail to understand the mysteries of the Universe, they read the Coran. But of course, the scientists at the NASA deny it, he adds. ( By the way, cam we reduce space technology to astrogeny or astronomy? ) ( from 'Le Monde' ) The list of examples is endless, it suffices to read a Turkish newspaper or magazine or listen to a turkish diplomat's speech and arguments. I know that I already talked too much and need there be, I will continue the next time. But before I retire let me say that I disagree with a) your statement that 'since then the only friend of theirs [Turks] is [the] US': we should distinguish between a watchdog and a friend, a gangster hired as a security guard is not necessarily a friend even though close to the boss: it is a merely a tool used to achieve a goal.
b) It might be the case that 'in normal situation they are nice people'; it is also the case that often macho men who abuse their wives are often fragile and nice; but how it can make their behaviour less abuvise and barbarian? Besides, I can't deny that some have generous hearts - they are humans after all - but they can be very dangerous and abusive as a collectivity. There are also innocent, soft and kind children who will grow up to be like their elders and keep alive the turkish abusive nature. What do you suggest? Shall we continue to pay the price? Why? For now, I will contemplate the heavenly face and eyes of a Chinese Goddess that inspires peace, comfort, sensuality, yet simplicity. Regards.